Unpleasant Incident

[lathany]

I had something of an unpleasant experience shopping in my local Tesco store today and I'm still wondering if I handled it right.

Now, I've always had a big thing about personal space and have never liked the people who move beyond the (cashier) end of the conveyor belt. The ones that particularly annoyed me were the people who stood far enough forward that I couldn't use the signing counter for signing. However, I've never said anything about it.

I will also add how much I hate the new pin machines in Tesco (and everywhere else). I don't feel that they are secure enough and always stoop over them in a protective fashion when typing in my pin. (Yes, I suspect you can already see where this story is going...)

Right, back to today. There were two men behind me in the queue and neither of them were staying back behind the stopping point on the conveyor belt. One of them was wandering back and forth around the aisle (the other cashier point behind me was empty) and the second one was standing right opposite the cashier. I handed over my card, heaved shopping into the pushchair and heard the cashier ask for my pin. I straightened up and looked around meaningfully. This worked, not at all. The one opposite the cashier still was. The other one was now standing directly behind me.

So, I asked them to stand back because I wanted to type in my pin. Needless to say, they were both very offended and rude (although they did actually stand back).

I felt rather guilty about the whole thing for several reasons (even though I keep justifying it).

i. They were both looked the sort of unshaved, unkempt types that television always portrays as the bad guys. (Although, I believe I would have said the same had they been anyone else.)

ii. I probably could have typed the number in without them seeing what it was. (But only probably; with them situated at different angles and both close it would have been difficult.)

iii. I was all but accusing them of trying to steal my pin. (Although, I really couldn't think of a better way of putting it.)

What would you have done? If it happens again, is there any other way of dealing with it? Or am I simply underestimating the security "sides" of the new pin machines?

Comments

[triskellian]

I also get annoyed by people getting in my personal space, and supermarkets are particularly bad. I think politely asking them to move is perfectly fine, and their rude reaction is their problem not yours. After all, if they'd been in similar proximity to you and your PIN at a cash point, you'd ask them to move (regardless of what they looked like!), and it's no different.

On an almost-related note, I also hate the new PIN machines, but for a completely different reason: I've just received the cards with my new name, and they're chip-and-pin, so I'll never learn the new signature!

[lathany.livejournal.com]

Thanks, that makes me feel rather better.

I'll never learn the new signature!

<laughs>

It's when you finally sign something like a letter and realise that you've written a four digit code that you have to worry...

[arralethe.livejournal.com]

I think you did absolutely the right thing. And if they were being rude and obnoxious, I suspect it is the bad-temperedness of those whose illdoings have been thwarted - after all, if someone asked you to step back, you'd probably say "Sure, no problem" wouldn't you?

It is far, far better to be safe than sorry - if they were nefarious characters, and *had* gotten your PIN, it is then very likely that they would have attempted to gain your card in some way. I don't know if the twins were with you at the time either, but trying to juggle kids, card and everything else is enough of a nightmare without being crowded and/or intimidated by strange people.

Alas, we don't live in the 40s anymore, and trust is hard to come by, for fairly good reasons. Stick to your guns, and sorry it upset you when they were unnecessarily unpleasant at you.

[lathany.livejournal.com]

you'd probably say "Sure, no problem" wouldn't you?

<shuffles>

I would. However I'd also panic about being in their personal space and then come home and write an LJ entry about "How close should you stand to someone at a pin machine?"

;-)

[arralethe.livejournal.com]

And breathe

I think what we're trying to say here is you're a rare, polite, civilised person. Unfortunately, the word that makes the difference there is rare

[secretrebel.livejournal.com]

They were probably offended because they realised that they were behaving badly. People *hate* admitting they're in the wrong.

However, I don't think any reasonable request when framed in a polite way should cause offence. You were trying to do something perfectly sensible, typing in your pin in private. The same would go for asking someone to move so you can get your pushchair down the aisle (or someone asking you to do the same), asking someone to pass you a 'next customer please' sign or asking someone if they could move their shopping so you can get to the empty carrier bags underneath. People are bad about all these things because they are thoughtless.

[lathany.livejournal.com]

People *hate* admitting they're in the wrong.

Certainly I do!

Yes, that sounds perfectly possible. Actually people are excellent about the "next customer please" signs in our Tesco and also the pushchair. In fact, I like the customers (and the cashiers) there; which is probably why these two made such an impression.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_alanna/]

With so much credit card fraud around at the moment, I shouldn't be at all worried about offending some (rather rude) people's sensibilities.

It constantly amazes me how little consideration for other people is taken as the norm nowadays. You weren't out of line at all - they were... although they probably never realised it. I think that's what annoys me the most about that sort of person - you can glare as much as you like, and they still won't have a clue that they're being rude!

[lathany.livejournal.com]

It constantly amazes me how little consideration for other people is taken as the norm nowadays.

I know. Of course, much I think they should have been standing elsewhere, there isn't concrete evidence stating as such. I wish there was actually a line on the floor in supermarkets (and other shops) these days like there is at (at least at our local) cash points. Saying "stay this side of the line until you are served" or similar. I guess such things will come in eventually.

[venta.livejournal.com]

They have a notice up in our local postoffice asking you to stand back from the counter until it's your turn - I'm not sure if this arrived at the same time as the type-your-PIN-in boxes for people doing banking things at the PO.

Someone stealing your PIN by looking over your shoulder is my biggest worry with chip'n'pin cards - though actually, I haven't been chip'n'pinned anywhere yet, which slightly surprises me.

Hopefully awareness of things like standing back from a PIN-typing-place being the correct thing to will rise as the machines become more common.

[al-fruitbat.livejournal.com]

And a new social phenomenon was born - the where to look when a PIN is being entered? question. Give it a few months and there'll be columnists likening it to the dilemmas faced by men in urinals ;-)

[lathany.livejournal.com]

So maybe pin-entering booths should look like urinals?

<pauses>

OK, that last thought was definitely a mistake.

[cardinalsin.livejournal.com]

Glad to see I'm not the only person weird enough to have thought of that :o/

[smiorgan.livejournal.com]

I'm amazed that they were offended and rude. A gentleman never, ever crowds a lady's personal space, and it's not just because of political correctness - I believe that it's also a definition of common assault (lawyers out there?) - and generally it counts as agressive behaviour towards women.

Anyway, I object to having my personal space invaded, and I'll only tolerate it in foreigners with different social norms, and then only if they're close friends or are paying my salary.

You absolutely did the right thing. People in the cash machine que don't peer over the other user's shoulder.

Jack Dee did a sketch about being crowded in a shopping que. "See this?" waving the little triangular divider at the person behind. "You stand behind it." Then he threw it to the other side of the supermarket.

[lathany.livejournal.com]

Jack Dee did a sketch about being crowded in a shopping que.

<laughs>:

I'm so with him on that.

[dr-bob.livejournal.com]

I agree with everyone else: Totally justified. I'm just as picky with personal space using a cashpoint.

[condign.livejournal.com]

I'll chime in near the end (damn time differences) and say: good call. They were behaving like jerks, and I hope some day some stereotypical old lady smacks them over the head with her parasol. ;)

[cuthbertcross.livejournal.com]

Maybe you should arm Bea with a parasol on your next outing just in case...

[onebyone.livejournal.com]

I think it's worth experimenting to see how easy it is to snoop other people's PINs - maybe get someone you know to stand behind you in the queue and vice versa, or just snoop strangers' PINs. If you can do it, then you know you have to be worried. If others can do it to you despite your best precautions, then you need to assume that your PIN isn't safe, and guard your card carefully, and report it missing immediately if you ever lose track of it.

However, the good thing about chip 'n' PIN is that if someone wants to use your card in person, then they have to actually have it in their possession. Previously, it was a simple matter to clone the magnetic strip on a card, and then all that was necessary was to be able to do a "good enough" signature. This can be assumed not to be too tricky given an inattentive cashier.

But chips pretty much can't be cloned, so you only have to worry if the card itself is taken. In the old days, of course, if the card was taken then you were also screwed, because the thief had until you reported it missing to learn to imitate your signature, and that probably doesn't take very long, and the signature to copy is right there on the card. Now they have to get your PIN as well, which might not be impossible but which probably isn't much easier than copying the signature.

The disadvantage of PIN is that now they have more opportunities to get your PIN, and if they have that they can get cash at an ATM without having to risk facing a real-life cashier. So the value of a stolen card plus PIN is greater than the value of an old stolen card, which means people might put more effort into stealing them. But once you report your card stolen, it's your bank's insurers problem who can get at your money, not yours. So keep an eye on your wallet and make sure you know what number to call if you're ever mugged for your cards by the two guys who were suspiciously standing too close to you in the supermarket queue.